Talking With... Yussef El Guindi

Playwright of JIHAD JONES & THE KALASHNIKOV BABES

Conducted by Rebecca Wright, InterAct's Literary Director & Dramaturg

                      & Kate Goldstein, Literary Intern

InterAct: In JIHAD JONES, Barry tries to sell Ashraf on the movie script by calling it a satire; at another point in the play, satire is described as “reductive and mean-spirited.” How do you see the role of satire? How is it different from other kinds of comedy? Would you describe this play as a satire? Can you talk a little bit about the decision to dramatize the very serious issues raised in this play in the form of comedy?

Yussef El Guindi: Was it George S. Kaufman who said satire is what closes on Saturday night? I'm not sure I'd ever write a straight satire, and I probably wouldn't call it one if I did. When you say "satire" people tend to think you're writing a skit, or skewering some target and nothing more. I have no particular interest in doing that. I think I'd reserve my polemics for an essay. I do think satires are a tad reductive, and mean-spirited. At the same time, I don't think there's any such thing as a pure genre. And certainly not in my pieces. I regard this play as a comedy with elements of satire, and farce. And even a few semi-(though only semi) serious moments.

In general, I do tend to lean towards comedy, even when dealing with harsh subjects. I don't know if it's the culture of cynicism and irony that has so colored my outlook that I tend to see things through the prism of absurdity. But that "that-is-just-too absurd (or too-ridiculous)" outlook tends to be my default position. And if I can't find the absurdity or the comedy in a potential subject for a play, I tend to shy away from it. At least until I can get a comic handle on it. Even if the play gets terribly serious at certain points, I know I can hopefully find my way back to the laughs. (One hopes!)

InterAct: You are originally from Egypt. If you don’t mind me asking, have you encountered the kind of racial prejudice and stereotyping that Ashraf experiences in JIHAD JONES? If so, how did that play a role in the genesis and development of this play?

Yussef El Guindi: The idea for the play began after seeing one too many films where the villains were Arabs and Muslims. You don't always have Arab actors playing the Arab villains, but on occasion you do. And when that occurs, I'll be sitting there in the movie theater, watching this Arab or Middle-Eastern actor doing this vile impersonation of Arab as odious villain and I'll be thinking, "what did you see in this part that made you say 'yes'? Are you insane? That you would bend over at such a radical angle and let all of us get screwed through you, through this impersonation?"

What is worse, these absurd impersonations seem to draw little protest, or even comment from critics and audiences. The assumption appearing to be, "well, of course Arabs and Muslims behave this way." (As it is said, repeat something often enough and even cartoon characterizations can be perceived as real.)

At the same time I have sympathy for these struggling actors. And I can well imagine the rational behind their decisions. The feeling that, "yes, this role sucks, but maybe I can use this as a stepping stone; I can network, etc, and then get better roles in the future." Not to mention their need to make a living.

So it was both the anger and empathy I felt for these Middle-Eastern actors taking on these roles that in part became the genesis for this play.

InterAct: There are so many examples of stereotyped representation of Arabs in popular media. In your opinion, do Americans have a particular prejudicial blind spot in relation to Arabs and Arab-Americans?

Yussef El Guindi: Yes, is the short answer. Even before 9/11. Even before the first Gulf War. I've felt it since first coming here in 1983. Arabs and Muslims seem to reside somewhere outside the cultural pale. They don't seem to be part of the cultural conversation here. When Arabs or Muslims are mentioned it is invariably in some negative context. And this is not just a matter of hurt feelings. (As in, get over it, every group gets slammed for something.) This continuous drumbeat of negativity has real world consequences. If you continuously berate and heap scorn and dehumanize and create a shudder in your audience every time a particular group is mentioned then it becomes that much easier to declare war on them. You can persuade yourself that by going to war you're trying to help them, and civilize them.

The stories we tell about each other matter. In terms of human lives they matter.

Now it is true that other groups in this country have also gone through this, and still go through this. The director Julius in JIHAD JONES alludes to this. And part of the responsibility - a lot of the responsibility - lies with Arabs and Muslims themselves to get out there and speak up. And not to be discouraged if there isn't a welcoming mat. We are responsible for getting our stories out.

InterAct: There is a lot of argument in JIHAD JONES about whether art has a responsibility to represent the world in a particular way. Where do you stand on this question? Do you believe that artists have certain moral or political obligations to the world in which they make art and/or the subjects about whom they make it?

Yussef El Guindi: I think the simple act of getting one's story out, especially if it's a story that hasn't been heard widely enough, becomes a political act in itself. Now comedy/ satire/ farce tends to be somewhat reductive when it comes to character - that's often where the laughs come from, in part - but even in this genre, depicting an Arab or a Muslim in a somewhat three-dimensional way becomes a political act all by itself.

In general, writing a political play is tricky. One has to find the right "objective correlative", or dramatic conflict, that encapsulates what you want to say without making the audience feel you're stopping the action to say something. The action, or dramatic conflict, has to be the point. If you're not conveying what you want to say through the dramatic action then I wouldn't bother trying to convey it.

In line with that, I would have to say, I have no particular agenda when I write a play. Hard to believe, given the subject matter of this play, but I really don't. No particular agenda can be as interesting as one's anarchic subconscious, and what that might throw your way. I would never stand in the way of a good comic non-sequitor, even if it might sabotage a particular point I am trying to make. (Maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration.) Then again, if I'm really doing my job, there will be no particular point that I'll be trying to make.

InterAct: How do you see the relationship between art and politics?

Yussef El Guindi: In my regular life I do tend to be socially and politically aware. I care about what's going on. And often I would like to write about what's going on. But I won't start that project until whatever political/ societal concerns I have have wormed their way into my subconscious, and then resurfaced, unannounced, into my imagination. So that I begin the play without at first knowing what I'm writing about, or where the play might be going.

In general though, I do tend to side with the idea that art just needs to take care of itself first, and be good, and entertaining. The artist has the responsibility to create something that will engage his or her audience. If like Brecht, or Edward Bond, or Dario Fo you can do both - write a "politically" entertaining play - then all the better. I love watching a play that addresses - directly or obliquely- what's going on. For me, that's often theater at its best.

InterAct: There is also a lot of argument in the play about money. To what extent do you think the big budgets of Hollywood films influence content and how it’s treated? Is this different in theatre (specifically the generally small-budget world of non-profit theatre)?

Yussef El Guindi: It's not often the case that huge amounts of money will be spent on a film that challenges the prejudices, or misperceptions of an audience. Big-budgeted films will often simplify everything, including racial/ethnic groups. Theater, usually, has the luxury to explore and flesh out and take on an issue through language and story. Whereas the visual demands of film tend to flatten, and hurry things along the conveyor belt of cinematic action....In general, big money is risk averse. And challenging a prejudice can be risky.

InterAct: What are you working on now? What’s next for you?

Yussef El Guindi: I have a play called LANGUAGE ROOMS that was recently given a wonderful staged reading at Wilma. I'm putting a few polishes on that now. After that, who knows!

InterAct: Thanks, Yussef.

THE 2008/2009 SEASON

Introduction

The War Party

The Rant

Jihad Jones...

Purchasing Tickets

About The Play

Running Time

The Playwright

Playwright Interview

Lead Actor Interview

The Director

The Cast & Crew

NNPN

Talk-Backs

Calendar

Little Lamb

Writing Aloud

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